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and "the wall street journal," obama's cliff offer spurned. i want to bring in joanne reed and molly ball, political reporter for "the atlantic." good to see both of you. good morning. >> good to be here. >> mitch mcconnell, we are told, literally laughed at the white house's offer. and if you listen to speaker boehner, it's not going very well. take a listen. >> i'm disappointed in where we are and disappointed in what's happened over the last couple of weeks. but going over the fiscal cliff is serious business. and i'm here seriously trying to resolve it. and i would hope the white house would get serious as well. >> and the speaker tweeted, "how serious is the white house about avoiding the fiscal cliff?" reports suggest, in some cases, not so serious. and also, joanne, what is the strategy here, and is there a risk like looking like you're not really negotiating? >> well, you know, i think what's interesting is that there's the posture that everyone is taking in public, but then what you're hearing behind the scenes is that everyone's sort
and "the wall street journal," obama's cliff offer spurned. i want to bring in joanne reed and molly ball, political reporter for "the atlantic." good to see both of you. good morning. >> good to be here. >> mitch mcconnell, we are told, literally laughed at the white house's offer. and if you listen to speaker boehner, it's not going very well. take a listen. >> i'm disappointed in where we are and disappointed in what's happened over the last couple of...
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treasury secretary timothy geithner, president obama's point man in these fiscal cliff negotiations, ran the gauntlet this morning. he appeared on all five sunday talk shows, including "meet the press" of course, what else did he say? >> craig, you know if we're in the posturing stage and a lot of people think we're still in the posturing stage with, 29 or 30 days to go. we better hope that they're just posturing, because after the period of optimism, the post-election talk of compromise, you remember john boehner came out the day after the election, the president spoke about compromise as well. they're as far apart as they ever have been and the clock is ticking. what timothy geithner said is as follows, nothing is going to get done unless republicans agree to raise rates on the wealthiest 2% of americans we know the figure by now. those couples filing jointly making more than $250,000. the rates must rise, not a matter of closing loopholes or deductions or simplifying the tax code this is the way it has to be to meet their revenue goals. contrary to what mitch mcconnell and john bo
treasury secretary timothy geithner, president obama's point man in these fiscal cliff negotiations, ran the gauntlet this morning. he appeared on all five sunday talk shows, including "meet the press" of course, what else did he say? >> craig, you know if we're in the posturing stage and a lot of people think we're still in the posturing stage with, 29 or 30 days to go. we better hope that they're just posturing, because after the period of optimism, the post-election talk of...
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there is new intrigue in the fight over the fiscal cliff talks today. both sides have messages out this morning that seem to echo the same old position. this on the heels of president obama holding a campaign-style event in suburban philadelphia to sell his solution. he said if congress does not extend the bush tax cuts for the middle class, everyone's taxes will go up january 1st. >> i'm assuming that doesn't sound too good to you. that's sort of like the lump of coal you get for christmas. that's a scrooge christmas. >> meanwhile house speaker john boehner says the latest proposal from the white house would cripple the economy. the plan calls for a boost in revenue by $1.6 trillion over the next decade. >> they want to have this extra spending that's actually greater than the amount they're willing to cut. i mean it's, it's -- not a serious proposal. so right now we're almost nowhere. >> >> mike viqueira joins us live from the white house. where is almost nowhere? >> it's inside the beltway and it's business as usual. it's also december 1st, alex, and
there is new intrigue in the fight over the fiscal cliff talks today. both sides have messages out this morning that seem to echo the same old position. this on the heels of president obama holding a campaign-style event in suburban philadelphia to sell his solution. he said if congress does not extend the bush tax cuts for the middle class, everyone's taxes will go up january 1st. >> i'm assuming that doesn't sound too good to you. that's sort of like the lump of coal you get for...
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obama is taking his fiscal cliff plan to the people. will republicans buckle under public pressure? msnbc's political analyst michael eric dyson and democratic strategist donna gentile-o'donnell will weigh in on that tonight. >>> welcome back to "the ed show." president obama has put house speaker john boehner and republicans in a box on fiscal cliff negotiations. and the evidence is mounting. president obama stayed on offense today, visiting the santana family in northern virginia whose taxes will go up more than $4,000 in 2013 if middle class tax cuts aren't extended. >> i'm encouraged to see that there's been some discussion on the part of republicans acknowledging the need for additional revenue. as i've indicated, the only way to get the kind of revenue for a balanced deficit reduction plan is to make sure that we're also modestly increasing rates for people who can afford it. folks like me. just to be clear, i'm not going to sign any package that somehow prevents the top rate from going up for folks at the top 2%. >> the concerted
obama is taking his fiscal cliff plan to the people. will republicans buckle under public pressure? msnbc's political analyst michael eric dyson and democratic strategist donna gentile-o'donnell will weigh in on that tonight. >>> welcome back to "the ed show." president obama has put house speaker john boehner and republicans in a box on fiscal cliff negotiations. and the evidence is mounting. president obama stayed on offense today, visiting the santana family in northern...
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before we get to all of that, the fiscal cliff. we start with president obama digging in his heels about raising taxes on the wealthiest. senior administration official telling "the wall street journal" there will be no new offers until republicans allow tax rates to go up on top earners. this morning, the president accusing the gop of brinksmanship while republican senator orrin hatch said democrats are asking for too much. >> it's unacceptable for some republicans in congress to hold middle class tax cuts hostage simply because they refuse to let tax rates go up on the weltiest americans. >> what he proposed this week was a classic bait and switch on the american people. a tax increase double the size of what he campaigned on. >> joining me now nbc white house news correspondent mike viqueira. what can you make of this? fiscal cliff talks are they a nonstarter? >> i tell you, you listen to everything that is being said publicly. you see the president there. it's clear that the election, yes, is over. but the campaign goes on here
before we get to all of that, the fiscal cliff. we start with president obama digging in his heels about raising taxes on the wealthiest. senior administration official telling "the wall street journal" there will be no new offers until republicans allow tax rates to go up on top earners. this morning, the president accusing the gop of brinksmanship while republican senator orrin hatch said democrats are asking for too much. >> it's unacceptable for some republicans in congress...
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a gradual inching away from the edge of the fiscal cliff, depends on who you believe. even with the clock ticking it's almost two week since president obama and john boehner met in person. nbc news confirms two leaders spoke by phone for 15 minutes last night a call described by politico as short and curt. boehner gave his state on the current talks a moment ago. >> no substancetive progress has been made in the talks between the white house and the house over past two weeks. all eyes are on the white house. the country doesn't need a v victory lap it needs leader. >> behind the scenes of the contours of a deal are starting to take shape, a trillion plus dollars in tax heights, entitlements of $400 billion and 1.2 trillion in spending cuts to offset the dreaded sequester. if the phoners haven't been gabfests the president is chatting up other folks including small business owners, middle class americans and mitt romney-loving ceos. if awkward meetings are par for the course in washington, the president's one today takes the cake. later this hour, president obama will s
a gradual inching away from the edge of the fiscal cliff, depends on who you believe. even with the clock ticking it's almost two week since president obama and john boehner met in person. nbc news confirms two leaders spoke by phone for 15 minutes last night a call described by politico as short and curt. boehner gave his state on the current talks a moment ago. >> no substancetive progress has been made in the talks between the white house and the house over past two weeks. all eyes are...
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at 31 past the hour, president obama is taking his case for a fiscal cliff solution to the voters. in his new weekly address today he's asking supporters to lobby their congressmen. >> it's unacceptable for some republicans in congress to hold middle class tax cuts hostage simply because they refuse to let tax rates go up on the wealthiest americans. and if you agree with me, then i could sure use your help. let your congressman know what $2,000 means to you. give them a call. write them an e-mail. or tweet them using the #my2k. >>> joining me now is karen finney, a nbc political analyst and tony frato former white house press secretary under president george w. bush. hello to the two of you. i've got to ask you. is that a world aids day t-shirt you got going on? >> this is my favorite product red t-shirts. red's raised over $200 million for aids relief. and remember it's world aids day today. get out there and support everyone who's doing everything to end aids. >> i talked to michael elliott as well the ceo of one about the same thing. good on you. let's get to this, karen. the v
at 31 past the hour, president obama is taking his case for a fiscal cliff solution to the voters. in his new weekly address today he's asking supporters to lobby their congressmen. >> it's unacceptable for some republicans in congress to hold middle class tax cuts hostage simply because they refuse to let tax rates go up on the wealthiest americans. and if you agree with me, then i could sure use your help. let your congressman know what $2,000 means to you. give them a call. write them...
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." >>> coming up in our next hour, we have the very latest on the fiscal cliff negotiations including new reaction from speaker boehner and senate majority leader reid after their meetings with secretary geithner on capitol hill today. >>> plus, a live report from the white house on president obama and mitt romney's lunch meeting in the private residence. >>> we are following developing news. former president george h.w. bush has been hospitalized. we'll update you on his condition. >>> plus, we are just now an hour away from an historic u.n. vote on the palestinian's bid for statehood. israel's vice prime minister joins me live. now we need a little bit more... [ male announcer ] at humana, we understand the value of quality time and personal attention. which is why we are proud to partner with health care professionals who understand the difference that quality time with our members can make... that's a very nice cake! ohh! [ giggles ] [ male announcer ] humana thanks the physicians, nurses, hospitals, pharmacists and other health professionals who helped us achieve the highest aver
." >>> coming up in our next hour, we have the very latest on the fiscal cliff negotiations including new reaction from speaker boehner and senate majority leader reid after their meetings with secretary geithner on capitol hill today. >>> plus, a live report from the white house on president obama and mitt romney's lunch meeting in the private residence. >>> we are following developing news. former president george h.w. bush has been hospitalized. we'll update...
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the deadline for the fiscal cliff is drawing near. you have to imagine that that was a large part of romney's discussions today both with president obama and with ryan. >> kristen welker at the white house, thanks so much. >>> we take you back on capitol hill where congressional leaders put much of their energy on the ongoing fiscal cliff negotiations. oklahoma representative tom cole who broke ranks with republicans by embracing president obama's plan to raise taxes on the wealthy stuck to his guns this morning. >> if we can give the american people an early christmas present, if they can listen to the debate instead of be worried that their own taxes are going to go up, i think that actually strengthens our hand. i haven't changed my mind. i'm not going to come out here and be disingenuous to people. i think it would be a step in the right direction. >> today john boehner expressed disappointment at where the negotiations stand. as our first read team points out, by siding with the white house tom cole may be helping boehner get the
the deadline for the fiscal cliff is drawing near. you have to imagine that that was a large part of romney's discussions today both with president obama and with ryan. >> kristen welker at the white house, thanks so much. >>> we take you back on capitol hill where congressional leaders put much of their energy on the ongoing fiscal cliff negotiations. oklahoma representative tom cole who broke ranks with republicans by embracing president obama's plan to raise taxes on the...
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ram. >>> president obama is taking his fiscal cliff plan to the people. will republicans buckle under public pressure? msnbc's political analyst michael eric dyson and democratic strategist donna genteel-o'donnell will weigh in on that tonight. >>> the ceo of apple makes a big announcement about the future of the company's products. e.j. dionne on the political impact of that later. we'll be right back. oh, cloudy glasses. you didn't have to come over! actually, honey, i think i did... oh? you did? whoa, ladies, easy. hi. cascade kitchen counselor. we can help avoid this with cascade complete pacs. see, over time, cascade complete pacs fight film buildup two times better than finish quantum. to help leave glasses sparkling shiny! too bad it doesn't work on windows. okay, i'm outta here. cascade. the clear choice. a new way to save on your prescriptions. it's the aarp medicarerx saver plus plan from unitedhealthcare. with this plan, you can get copays as low as a dollar through a preferred network pharmacy like walgreens -- where you'll find 8,000 convenie
ram. >>> president obama is taking his fiscal cliff plan to the people. will republicans buckle under public pressure? msnbc's political analyst michael eric dyson and democratic strategist donna genteel-o'donnell will weigh in on that tonight. >>> the ceo of apple makes a big announcement about the future of the company's products. e.j. dionne on the political impact of that later. we'll be right back. oh, cloudy glasses. you didn't have to come over! actually, honey, i think...
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that's the reason why we're likely to go over an overhyped cliff. the deal is going to eventually get done and look more like what obama ran and run on than their pipe dream. >> why don't you think we've seen a concrete offer from the gop yet with regards to entitlement reform specifically? >> you know, it's interesting. you know, you didn't see that kind of demand for campaign-style running on platforms when you had previous successful bipartisan deals as in 1990, as in 1997. you had people who were willing to make a good fake deal with each other, and you had, i guess, a certain level of trust that you just don't have in this case. i think republicans feel that if they put up a counter offer, their own deal that doesn't mean there's going to be any progress towards a deal. it's just going to be more fodder for campaign-style events. >> but you'd have to be crazy to trust republicans to be negotiators of good faith on these issues when they already said that they cared more about political negotiations and their political interest than the actual e
that's the reason why we're likely to go over an overhyped cliff. the deal is going to eventually get done and look more like what obama ran and run on than their pipe dream. >> why don't you think we've seen a concrete offer from the gop yet with regards to entitlement reform specifically? >> you know, it's interesting. you know, you didn't see that kind of demand for campaign-style running on platforms when you had previous successful bipartisan deals as in 1990, as in 1997. you...
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today president obama again made clear there will be no deal to avert the so-called fiscal cliff without the rich paying a higher tax rate. got it? higher rate. in this interview on bloomberg tv, he made it. let's listen. >> the issue right now that's relevant is the acknowledgment that if we're going to raise revenues that are sufficient to balance with the very tough cuts that we've already made and the further reforms and entitlements that i'm prepared to make, that we're going to have to see the rates on the top 2% go up, and we're not going to be able to get a deal without it. >> there you heard it again, top rates have to go up and rates. and some republicans are saying that the gop will ultimately say uncle. conservative columnist byron york, a very smart guy wrote, quote, republicans will cave on the question of raising the tax rate for the highest income americans. the only question is whether they do so before or after the government goes over the so-called fiscal cliff "new york times" column us david brooks describes it this way. republicans will be raising middle class tacks
today president obama again made clear there will be no deal to avert the so-called fiscal cliff without the rich paying a higher tax rate. got it? higher rate. in this interview on bloomberg tv, he made it. let's listen. >> the issue right now that's relevant is the acknowledgment that if we're going to raise revenues that are sufficient to balance with the very tough cuts that we've already made and the further reforms and entitlements that i'm prepared to make, that we're going to have...
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the cliff is at when the ball drops. president obama rejected speaker boehner's $2.2 trillion plan saying there's no deal without tax hikes for the wealthy. in an interview with bloomberg news warned about gamesmanship hurting the economy. >> i think america is poised to take off. and the question is, let's make sure we don't have a self-inflicted wound because there are silly games played up on capitol hill. >> let's bring in our wednesday gaggle. non-dcors. i'm curious what you think. nancy gibbs, deputy managing editor for "time" magazine and director editor of msnbc david wolfe. he's a new yorker now. eroll, let me start with you. watching what we're doing down in washington, does anybody outside of washington care? >> very much so. very much so. >> new york is paying attention because of all you wall street people. >> wall street and the defense cuts. there's a lot riding on it and a lot as far as people's preferences. the state votes for the president, the state votes for a president who said he was going to do cer
the cliff is at when the ball drops. president obama rejected speaker boehner's $2.2 trillion plan saying there's no deal without tax hikes for the wealthy. in an interview with bloomberg news warned about gamesmanship hurting the economy. >> i think america is poised to take off. and the question is, let's make sure we don't have a self-inflicted wound because there are silly games played up on capitol hill. >> let's bring in our wednesday gaggle. non-dcors. i'm curious what you...
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if we go over the cliff, it clears the slate and gives the obama team an opportunity to come back and really focus in on things better for the middle class. boehner knows this. this is why boehner is now coming to the table saying, all right, we can't do the cliff thing, we'll get the political hit for it and we'll also be in a bad negotiating position. but he has to identify where the money's coming from. and it's got to be rates. i get a sense in washington that the democrats have drawn the line in the sand on rates. if you can't get rates, you can't get anything else. boehner's going to come out and identify a bunch of deductions. that's not going to be enough. you got to go the rates. once you do the rates, everything else might fall in place because do i think the white house will negotiate. >> i want to go over the stakes of all of this just for the average american family, if we do go over the cliff, about 90% of households would end up paying almost $3,500 more in taxes and one in five action pai -- taxpayers would have to pay the alternative minimum tax, which would mean an i
if we go over the cliff, it clears the slate and gives the obama team an opportunity to come back and really focus in on things better for the middle class. boehner knows this. this is why boehner is now coming to the table saying, all right, we can't do the cliff thing, we'll get the political hit for it and we'll also be in a bad negotiating position. but he has to identify where the money's coming from. and it's got to be rates. i get a sense in washington that the democrats have drawn the...
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and former health insurance executive wendell potter on what obama's proposed $340 billion in medicare cuts will mean for seniors. >>> vice president joe biden stumps for the middle class at a retail store that treats its workers right. i'll talk costco and fiscal cliff with steve greenhouse of "the new york times." >>> plus hostess executives tank their company and cost the people their jobs. so why are they still demanding millions of dollars in bonuses? >>> and we'll tell you how senator john mccain fits in with congressman louie gohmert's latest conspiracy theory. >> this administration sent planes and bombs and support to oust gadhafi so al qaeda and the muslim brotherhood could take over libya. >>> good to have you with us tonight, folks. republicans are walking tall in public but hanging their heads behind closed doors. john boehner struck a defiant tone during a news conference today. he blamed the president and democrats for stalling negotiations on a debt deal. >> despite the claims that the president supports a balanced approach, the democrats have yet to get serious about r
and former health insurance executive wendell potter on what obama's proposed $340 billion in medicare cuts will mean for seniors. >>> vice president joe biden stumps for the middle class at a retail store that treats its workers right. i'll talk costco and fiscal cliff with steve greenhouse of "the new york times." >>> plus hostess executives tank their company and cost the people their jobs. so why are they still demanding millions of dollars in bonuses?...
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it gives lawmakers a way it avoid a fiscal cliff or fiscal curve. it can end flirtations with fiscal suicide. that the last word. i'm ezra klein in for ed o'donnell. >>> the president has returned from his trip. chris matthews and "hardball" is next. >>> a no-brainer for boehner. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me the start tonight with this. somebody has got to break it to mr. boehner, your side lost. romney, remember him? he's the guy who ran on the rich man's platform. the hands off the big boys' ticket. he's the guy who said his fellow 2%ers have your back. mr. boehner, ye of limited memory, the voters looked this issue directly in the eye, they heard your guy, romney, playing palace guard for the plutocrats, and they said i think i'll vote for the guy who is looking out for the middle class. i think i will let that guy go back to bain or whatever. time for mr. boehner to stop protecting the rich. joy reid is managing editor of the grio, and david corn is washington bureau chief for mother jones and
it gives lawmakers a way it avoid a fiscal cliff or fiscal curve. it can end flirtations with fiscal suicide. that the last word. i'm ezra klein in for ed o'donnell. >>> the president has returned from his trip. chris matthews and "hardball" is next. >>> a no-brainer for boehner. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me the start tonight with this. somebody has got to break it to mr. boehner, your side lost. romney,...
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going over the cliff for them is not the worst of all possible worlds. they get the tax position that they want, they get spending cuts that they can basically live with, and obama is capable of managing the economic fallout of it. that's another reason why i think it's important that geithner is the front man here, that geithner is the type of guy who can talk to the street in a way that's very assuring. >> the street, not the streets. >> yeah. >> also if they -- if we go over the cliff, i mean, the republicans then look like they let it happen all for the 2% as michael was saying because that's what this becomes about. that's not something they want. it doesn't put them in a good position. to some degree this is a choreographed dance that has to happen. they cannot come to a deal without a humongous fight. >> this is also the white house i think has managed the optics well on this and dubbed it the great reasonableness tour of 2012. it's not a coincidence that the president was golfing with bill clinton this sudden. that is as much the president likes
going over the cliff for them is not the worst of all possible worlds. they get the tax position that they want, they get spending cuts that they can basically live with, and obama is capable of managing the economic fallout of it. that's another reason why i think it's important that geithner is the front man here, that geithner is the type of guy who can talk to the street in a way that's very assuring. >> the street, not the streets. >> yeah. >> also if they -- if we go...
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affect state budgets many governors are also tackling the implementation of obama care. starting in 2014 medicaid will be expanded to all americans within 138% of the poverty line, which is individuals making $15,000 a year or less, give health care to as many as 21 million additional americans. eight governors including one of those at the white house today, oklahoma republican governor mary fallin are rejecting the offer, concerned their states may have to foot the bill down the road. the president was sure to have some thoughts following their pow wow at the white house. the six governors are on to meet with house speaker john boehner and senate majority leader harry reid this afternoon, also sure to have some thoughts. joy, the medicare question is really interesting in terms of how the governors play this one. in so far as, if you're a republican governor and offered the federal -- the federal government says it's going to cover i believe 100% of the cost of expanding the rolls from 2014 to 2016 and basically between 95% and 90% thereafter, to say no at this point w
affect state budgets many governors are also tackling the implementation of obama care. starting in 2014 medicaid will be expanded to all americans within 138% of the poverty line, which is individuals making $15,000 a year or less, give health care to as many as 21 million additional americans. eight governors including one of those at the white house today, oklahoma republican governor mary fallin are rejecting the offer, concerned their states may have to foot the bill down the road. the...
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for them, $500 million. >>> let's get to the fiscal cliff. politico has an exclusive report that president obama and house speaker boehner had a television conversation. politico characterizes it as, quote, kurt. he wants the white house to move his position on tax rates, but the president won't budge. the president responded to the house speaker according to politico telling him, if he has an alternative plan he ought to put that forward rather than focusing on entitlements. meanwhile the white house will send tim geithner to the white house for meetings with republican and democratic conditioningal leaders. yesterday the president met with big ceo's from goldman sachs, at&t, cater pillar, many who said after the meeting they've merged hoping a deal could be struck to avoid the fiscal cliff. in another meeting president obama said he believes the framework for a deal could be in place before christmas. >> i'll go anywhere and i'll do whatever it takes to get this done. it's too important for washington to screw this up. now is the time for u
for them, $500 million. >>> let's get to the fiscal cliff. politico has an exclusive report that president obama and house speaker boehner had a television conversation. politico characterizes it as, quote, kurt. he wants the white house to move his position on tax rates, but the president won't budge. the president responded to the house speaker according to politico telling him, if he has an alternative plan he ought to put that forward rather than focusing on entitlements. meanwhile...
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tea party 2 is going to dwarf tea party 1 if obama pushes us off the cliff. >> so basically, jon, what grover norquist is saying there to members of the tea party set who have been elected, who were elected, is, you know, we're going to take everybody who is against us into a primary on your right. >> right. >> on the republican side. >> right. >> so the threat has been issued already, even before we begin negotiating what the package will be. >> oh, yeah. >> this is like political terrorism. >> well, it's certainly a clear bargaining position. i remember three years ago talking to a longtime member of the house who was running for the senate. and we were talking about something else. and at the end of the conversation, i said, is it really as bad as everybody says? is it worse than when you came in? which was in the late '80s. and he said the central difference is in the caucus, the republican caucus, the fear is not a democratic challenge, it's a primary challenge. and it's the first time i had ever heard the term "to be primaried." he said, "you don't want to be primaried." you can
tea party 2 is going to dwarf tea party 1 if obama pushes us off the cliff. >> so basically, jon, what grover norquist is saying there to members of the tea party set who have been elected, who were elected, is, you know, we're going to take everybody who is against us into a primary on your right. >> right. >> on the republican side. >> right. >> so the threat has been issued already, even before we begin negotiating what the package will be. >> oh, yeah....
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cliff, this benefits him. the public will blame the republicans. okay. i suppose it's entirely possible. in fact, it's probable of that category. but does obama really want to start the second term going into recession again? the interesting thing, with this offer on the table, sequestration and the expiration of bush tax cuts for everyone is the best option for republicans right now. but as least under that, you can dispel this notion -- the biggest obstacle is this attitude of the public that we can solve the problem of the debt, we can solve the problem of entitlements just by raising taxes on the rich a little bit. it's fundamentally not true. but my attitude to say all right, fine, let's go with that. let's even go with tax increases for everybody. even that bottom bracket going up from 10% to 15%. let the bush tax cuts -- if they must expire, let them expire for everybody. and then we'll see how far tax increases can take us in dealing with these problems. and the answer is not that far at all. >> not th
cliff, this benefits him. the public will blame the republicans. okay. i suppose it's entirely possible. in fact, it's probable of that category. but does obama really want to start the second term going into recession again? the interesting thing, with this offer on the table, sequestration and the expiration of bush tax cuts for everyone is the best option for republicans right now. but as least under that, you can dispel this notion -- the biggest obstacle is this attitude of the public that...
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, which is no deal without some increase in rates, or we go over the cliff. >> let me just add one thing. when obama made that initial offer, we talked a little bit about how, you know, it was a wish list. it was ideological, whatever you want to say. i think it actually helped boehner in some respects because it gave him three or four things that he could then go back to his caucus and say, look, i moved obama off of this, this and this. and when boehner put his offer out there, you started to see what could potentially be a chip-trading process going on here, whereby you have some give on, you know, cpi, the inflation index for social security, and in exchange boehner would agree to some marginal rate in the tax rates. now the people need to start figuring out what they want to give and take. >> the only difference i would say, steve, between what the president wants and john boehner is it's not what john boehner wants. it's what john boehner can deliver. >> yeah. >> and this is a simple vote-counting measure. in his first interview since the election, president obama reiterated his de
, which is no deal without some increase in rates, or we go over the cliff. >> let me just add one thing. when obama made that initial offer, we talked a little bit about how, you know, it was a wish list. it was ideological, whatever you want to say. i think it actually helped boehner in some respects because it gave him three or four things that he could then go back to his caucus and say, look, i moved obama off of this, this and this. and when boehner put his offer out there, you...